Posts:
2,491
Registered:
8/7/08
|
|
|
|
Re: AmazonFail. Instead of fixing Seller Central, they are initiating anti-gay
Posted:
Apr 13, 2009 8:25 AM
in response to:
parkblvdbooks
|
|
|
Thanks for noticing, parkblvdbooks! For sellers, this is a business problem of huge proportions. I will acknowledge that it also has social, moral, and political implications as well, but I would hope that our primary concern is the business point of view. If Amazon wanted to keep certain genres off general lists, then they should have their programmers write appropriate programs to restrict certain types of books from being added to those lists. We all know that people buy stuff without reading the detail, and we all know that buyers will order a title because it sounds interesting and then go through the roof when they discover that it contains material of which they don't approve. (Lots of contingencies can occur too numerous to mention). However, removing book ranks causes us to have to reinterpret what a 0 book rank means, and it does shift the rank of every other book in the marketplace up to better ranks than they may actually have. It affects how we buy -- especially for those who use technologies in purchasing -- and how we price and how we determine salability. I consider lots of angles in purchasing, listing, and pricing, and ranking certainly does play a key role in those determinations. Amazon can do as they please, simply because it is their right. However, this particular move is kind of like "juggling the books," so to speak, because it does skew numbers that have previously represented certain accuracies. For those who want to talk about morality. How moral are these misrepresentations? How ethical? (Morals and ethics being two different things). Grams
|
|
Posts:
8,953
Registered:
9/20/06
|
|
|
|
Re: AmazonFail. Instead of fixing Seller Central, they are initiating anti-gay
Posted:
Apr 13, 2009 8:41 AM
in response to:
artisians
|
|
|
Amazon might be backpedaling now, so it's not clear what their position is at this moment regarding their "New Adult Policy" on sales ranks. This is/was not only an immoral decision, it’s commecial theft by censorship. Why steal sales ranks from some books based on subjective opinons about content? Amazon has huge impact on the publishing world. Why elevate ranks of some books undeserved by stealing other books from sales rank considerations?
Marketing decisions are influenced by sales ranks given on reading material. With no sales ranks for some material based on perceived content, it’s difficult for those within a marketing chain to make informed decisons. This kind of censorship and deception regarding sales ranks can impose censorship on future production and current buying choices.
Status quo assumptions regarding cultural norms can go unquestioned when illusions are created and perpetuated to marginalize some reading materials as “unimportant” because there are no sales ranks to determine market demands.
This kind of censorship to remove sales ranks on books considered "adult material" could eventually censor what is written, produced and sold for reading consumption.
|
|
Posts:
8,953
Registered:
9/20/06
|
|
|
|
Re: AmazonFail. Instead of fixing Seller Central, they are initiating anti-gay
Posted:
Apr 13, 2009 9:04 AM
in response to:
grams_books
|
|
|
grams_books: If Amazon wanted to
> keep certain genres off general lists, then they
> should have their programmers write appropriate
> programs to restrict certain types of books from
> being added to those lists. We all know that people
> buy stuff without reading the detail, and we all know
> that buyers will order a title because it sounds
> interesting and then go through the roof when they
> discover that it contains material of which they
> don't approve. (Lots of contingencies can occur too
> numerous to mention).
How would keeping "certain genres off general lists" be any different than censorship and commercial theft by removing sales ranks altogether? Are you suggesting Amazon should hide certain "genre" books from buyers by placing them on a "separate list"? That minor children should only be exposed to "general" gender information based on status quo assumptions regarding "normality"? Some of the reading material removed from sales ranks had little or no sex within while other so called "normal" books were unaffected and still have sales ranks intact.
Why not judge "all books" on the same content criteria gay, straight, or otherwise? Violence is much more dangerous than sexuality. If there is censorship, why not remove sales ranks for violent books too?
|
|
Posts:
6,655
Registered:
10/20/08
|
|
|
|
Re: AmazonFail. Instead of fixing Seller Central, they are initiating anti-gay
Posted:
Apr 13, 2009 9:12 AM
in response to:
artisians
|
|
|
This kind of censorship to remove sales ranks on books considered "adult material" could eventually censor what is written, produced and sold for reading consumption.
Censorship is the suppression of speech or deletion of communicative material which may be considered objectionable, harmful or sensitive, as determined by a censor. (from the wikipedia). Where is the elimination of sales rankings a suppression or deletion of any of an author's material? Censorship has a far narrower meaning than most ideologues use it in wielding accusations. A look at the books which are remaindered indicates that failure to be of commercial potential is not an obstacle to publication. So how could it lead to limitation of what is sold for reading consumption. Oprah Winfrey has a greater effect on the success of a book than any bestseller list.
|
|
Posts:
2,491
Registered:
8/7/08
|
|
|
|
Re: AmazonFail. Instead of fixing Seller Central, they are initiating anti-gay
Posted:
Apr 13, 2009 9:21 AM
in response to:
artisians
|
|
|
I am not discussing those issues with you or anyone else with regard to this particular thread. If you want to pursue those issues, of course, that is your right. By isolating a portion of the text of my post, you are suggesting that I was discussing this aspect of the many issues that arise from Amazon's choices. My contribution to this thread is confined strictly to "business" for booksellers -- not social, moral, or political implications. Please do not extract portions of my posts and misconstrue that I am addressing issues of your choice. Thank you for the invitation into that aspect of the issue, but I must decline the invitation. Grams
|
|
Posts:
8,953
Registered:
9/20/06
|
|
|
|
Re: AmazonFail. Instead of fixing Seller Central, they are initiating anti-gay
Posted:
Apr 13, 2009 9:40 AM
in response to:
grams_books
|
|
|
I extracted only the paragraph from your post that I responded to. It's unnecessary to requote an entire post if only responding to one paragraph within a particular post. In the future, I won't requote from your posts at all if you insist on having an entire post requoted to make a response.
To Everyone: In my opinion, ethics and business are intertwined and inseparable.
|
|
Posts:
1,197
Registered:
7/12/07
|
|
|
|
Re: AmazonFail. Instead of fixing Seller Central, they are initiating anti-
Posted:
Apr 13, 2009 9:49 AM
in response to:
artisians
|
|
|
(I am not specifically responding to any thing any one has said - just voicing a concern.) I am a little concerned by all this. The gay and lesbian market is extremely sensitive to appearance of prejudice - I don't want to lose any more customers than the economy has already lost for me. And GLBT people buy all kinds of books, not just books with GLBT content.
Looking through some of my listings, I see a pattern: Whether the sales ranks are there seems to be determined by how the book is marketed. Books marketed as "gay mysteries" have no sales rank. But books marketed as "mysteries" which happen to have a lot of gay content still have a sales rank.
One book I have by a major gay author, with gay content, but marketed at a mainstream audience still has its rankings. Several SF/Fantasy books, marketed to a mainstream audience, but with significant GLBT content, still have sales ranks.
This policy seems a little silly, and a disaster from a PR point of view.
|
|
Posts:
2,721
From:
could be just about anywhere
Registered:
2/8/06
|
|
|
|
Re: AmazonFail. Instead of fixing Seller Central, they are initiating anti-gay
Posted:
Apr 13, 2009 10:11 AM
in response to:
spencerbooksell...
|
|
|
As an illustrative example, let's say that I'm researching survivor stories about the holocaust. If every book pertaining to the gay experience during the holocaust is now classified as "adult" and no longer has a sales rank, I won't receive any meaningful results in my search at Amazon relating to that material. While perhaps a bit extreme, what if those results mean that I never realize/learn that there even was a gay holocaust experience? (And yes, there was.) Surely you wouldn't opine that those who don't want to be "accosted" with gay themed material would champion the idea of excluding gays from mainstream history, biography or research or that gays should have their own separate (but equal - sound familiar?) archive/database of information?
As a buyer, I use sales ranks and reviews to guide my research and purchasing decisions. If gay material no longer had a sales rank then my ability to make a purchasing decision at Amazon becomes compromised.
As a leader in the marketplace, Amazon has a duty to set the "morality" bar high and keep it there. I think this was a decision not made by the highest level of management and that someone wasn't thinking clearly about the ramifications of a discriminatory policy such as this. Sounds like someone higher up at Amazon realized the folly and has taken steps to rectify the situation (I hope).
As far as Kindle goes, Kindle books have their own sales rank system. Kindle editions showed up in such heavy numbers not because Amazon is pushing the format, but because Amazon evidently hadn't yet applied this new "adult material" policy to the Kindle sales ranks. Thus, any search that would result in gay related material is going to result in Kindle edition results since they actually have sales ranks and "adult" material titles don't. This really illustrates the impact that sales ranks have on search results and why a policy like this is SUCH a big deal.
~ trish
|
|
Posts:
2,491
Registered:
8/7/08
|
|
|
|
Re: AmazonFail. Instead of fixing Seller Central, they are initiating anti-gay
Posted:
Apr 13, 2009 10:14 AM
in response to:
artisians
|
|
|
I am not requesting that you repost my entire text. You can't be responding to an out of context point from my text when I have already said that I am NOT addressing those issues. The point was that Amazon could find another work-around for whatever goals they are trying to achieve. My sole issue here is that in making the choice that they have made, they have destroyed the accuracy, the reliability, the verifiability, the dependability of the numerical rankings of every book on the marketplace. If and when they choose another method for making published lists -- and if those methods call into question such issues as banning, censorship, discrimination. etc., I will choose at that time whether I wish to participate in those discussions, but I will not be dragged into the aspects of a discussion that I have already said I want no part of. If you want to discuss the business ethics of what they have done w/ regard to those numerical rankings, I did pose those questions at the end of my post. Grams
|
|
Posts:
8,953
Registered:
9/20/06
|
|
|
|
Re: AmazonFail. Instead of fixing Seller Central, they are initiating anti-
Posted:
Apr 13, 2009 10:33 AM
in response to:
bujoldfan
|
|
|
Mass media has been hugely impacted by gay culture so at some point in the future, gay identity labels will become obsolete and no longer needed. I chanced upon a book last weekend titled "The Rise and fall of Gay Culture". The title seems apt to describe what might be happening here.
"Gayness" has lost it's "edge" as concepts of fluid identities free from labels and restrictions become more accepted by mass culture. "Gayness" is going "out of style" and considered sort of "uncool" now even though gay culture has laid the historical groundwork for current identity flexibilities paid for by "gay" blood, sweat and tears.
The "old guard" gay culture might be trying to hold onto commercial viability of gay identity marketing. Gay culture has long "banked" on "uniqueness of gay identity for profit. As we move toward "fluid identities" freed from past restrictions of permanent identity labels, some members of the old guard gay worn "like a badge" in their cornered market share might feel like old shoes run over by a bus....
Mass culture has adopted what are considered same sex relationships as "cool" somewhat like options on a hollywood media menu without any real consequences faced by those who actually live in a culture of risk. "Gay" identity labels are often not accepted as "cool" by mass culture which has now co-opted only part of their experience into commodity.
We're going backward in time as we move forward in time. Labels like heterosexual only came into historical use recently to distinguish entire identities. Sexuality is only a part of our identities, not their entirety. Identity labels like "gay" can be used both to discriminate and to liberate like a double edged sword.
|
|
Posts:
4,282
Registered:
4/12/07
|
|
|
|
Re: AmazonFail. Instead of fixing Seller Central, they are initiating anti-gay
Posted:
Apr 13, 2009 10:36 AM
in response to:
lakewoodassocia...
|
|
|
Those 'arguments' have no relevancy to the issue at hand. 'poetry bookshops discriminate against prose'.... silly to suggest the situations are the same.
|
|
Posts:
2,721
From:
could be just about anywhere
Registered:
2/8/06
|
|
|
|
Re: AmazonFail. Instead of fixing Seller Central, they are initiating anti-gay
Posted:
Apr 13, 2009 10:44 AM
in response to:
cdsrus4
|
|
|
I think you need to seperate crime and morality.
Exactly.
|
|
Posts:
4,282
Registered:
4/12/07
|
|
|
|
Re: AmazonFail. Instead of fixing Seller Central, they are initiating anti-gay
Posted:
Apr 13, 2009 10:45 AM
in response to:
parkblvdbooks
|
|
|
I wonder who determines what is 'gay' content? Does that include art books that depict male nudes? If so, will artists that range from Da Vinci to Andy Warhol now be relegated to the 'adult' section? Will female nudes be considered pandering to a gay audience, as well? You are absolutely right to view this with disfavor. Hopefully, Amazon HAS realized they acted too hastily and are reconsidering.
Message was edited by:
pacifica_bookseller
|
|
Posts:
6,655
Registered:
10/20/08
|
|
|
|
Re: AmazonFail. Instead of fixing Seller Central, they are initiating anti-gay
Posted:
Apr 13, 2009 11:04 AM
in response to:
pacifica_bookse...
|
|
|
Why not? Because you care about these books. As I see it gays are free to be gay, and write books about it, or subjects of interest to other gays. Businesses are free to choose how they sell or promote such books or exclude them from any form of marketing or promotion. It ain't censorship, it ain't discrimination, it ain't immoral, Books of interest to gays, lesbians and transexuals are commerical ventures and no different from any other commercial venture. They are entitled to no more advantages in distribution than any other commerical activity, and that means the distributor gets to decide how they are featured or whether they are featured. I hope the proponents of this literature get the satisfaction they desire, but will not mourn if they fail. This is not a free speech issue.
Message was edited by:
lakewoodassociates
|
|
Posts:
4,282
Registered:
4/12/07
|
|
|
|
Re: AmazonFail. Instead of fixing Seller Central, they are initiating anti-gay
Posted:
Apr 13, 2009 11:30 AM
in response to:
lakewoodassocia...
|
|
|
Well, I"m glad you edited your reply, because your first reply, stating merely: 'Why not? Because you care about these books' really made no sense. You have no idea what books I care about, so that is not relevant to this issue. You further stated that 'they are entitled to no more advantages in distribution' .... but the issue here is that literature deemed 'gay' (by whom?) would be relegated to the 'adult' section, which carries the whiff of X-rated in many people's minds. It is therefore not giving 'them' more advantages' it is taking away equal privileges. It appears Amazon has also realized the folly of this action, and may be revoking it.
|
|
|
Legend
|
|
Amazonian
|
|
Helpful Answer
|
|
Correct Answer
|
|
Seller Account |
Community Guidelines |
Seller Support Blog
| Help
